Croatia has a wealth of cultural diversity and intercultural relations that should be proudly “exported” to Europe
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At the Oracle Network seminar held in Marseille, Richard Ferdinand, the director of the “Roberto Cimetta Foundation”, had a short presentation on the challenges faced by his foundation. Mr.Ferdinand is a musician in a variety of alternative rock and jazz groups from the 70s until 2000. Currently, he’s the director of AIM, the Association for innovative music, which he founded in 1985. Also, he participates in various bodies that promote international cultural cooperation, in the “Anna Lindh Foundation”, besides others. He was President of “Culture Action Europe” 1996 – 1999 and it’s active member since 1994. After the presentation, we spoke with him about the mobility of artists, the North-South relations in the management of culture, but also about the position and meaning of Croatian culture in the international framework…
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[lang_hr]U sklopu Oracle network seminara održanog u Marseillu, Richard Ferdinand, ravnatelj Fondacije “Roberto Cimetta”, održao je kraće izlaganje o izazovima koji stoje pred fondacijom. Trenutno je direktor AIM, Udruge za inovativnu glazbu, koju je osnovao 1985. Sudjeluje u raznim tijelima koje promiču međunarodnu kulturnu suradnju, uz ostalo u Zakladi „Anna Lindh“. Bio je predsjednik Culture Action Europe 1996 – 1999 a kao član aktivan je od 1994. Nakon održanog izlaganja porazgovarali smo s njime o mobilnosti umjetnika, odnosu sjever-jug u menadžmentu u kulturi, ali i o položaju i značenju hrvatske kulture u međunarodnim okvirima…[/lang_hr]
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-You’ve mentioned that mobility is very important in the artistic, but also in a political sense, can you explain it?[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]-Spomenuo ste da je pokretljivost (mobilnost) vrlo važna u umjetničkom, ali i u političkom smislu, može li to objasniti?[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]-Well, it’s all about cultural diversity. The movement is about renewing ideas, renewing situations, and if you get stuck in a closed place, with always the same things, the same references, the same people, the same landscape… of course you can, eventually, keep being innovative, but than you have to be like a monk… You have to be like in a, I would say, some kind of philosophical state of mind, and really concentrating on your thoughts, concentrating on a very specific little, single things. But, if you want to renew stories in another way, like to get confronted to new situations, new people, new ideas, of course you need mobility. And I don’t believe that the flow of information we receive from Internet or from the medias, I do not consider this as mobility, because exactly as you said before – information is made of multi-level thing – there is the factual information ‑the writing, the image, and than there is what your body feels, the temperature, what you eat, the light, everything…everything is a part of the information. So, if you just stay behind your computer screen, I think you miss most of information, so you get a fact routine, which is eventually a fake, because now with Internet you can fake information very easily. And than – you don’t feel it with your body, and so you don’t have the real thing. It’s very obvious when you travel around that you’ve got plenty of information about the place you go- you think you know the place, but once you get there you begin to understand that actually you didn’t know. Because it’s not only a matter of factual information. Information is made of multiple things.[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]-Pa, u osnovi se tu radi o kulturnoj raznolikosti. Mobilnost obnavlja ideje, obnavlja situacije, a ako zapnete u zatvorenom mjestu, s uvijek istim stvarima, istim referencama, istim ljudima i krajolikom … naravno da, u krajnjoj liniji, možete nastaviti biti inovativni, ali tada morate biti poput monaha … Morate biti u, rekao bih, svojevrsnom filozofskom stanju uma, doista koncentrirani na svoje misli, koncentrirajući se na vrlo specifične, male pojedinačne stvari. Međutim, želite li obnoviti priče na drugi način, kao npr. suočiti se s novim situacijama, novim ljudima, novim idejama, naravno da vam treba pokretljivost. A ja ne vjerujem da je protok informacija koje smo primili s Interneta ili kroz medije, ne smatram to pokretljivošću, jer je točno tako kao što ste prije rekao – informacija je višeslojna stvar – postoje činjenične informacije – ono što je napisano, slike; a zatim je tu i ono što vaše tijelo osjeća- temperatura, ono što jedete, svjetlo, sve … sve je dio informacija. Dakle, ako samo ostanete iza zaslona računala, mislim da vam nedostaje veći dio informacija, tako da dobivate rutinu činjenica, koje su na koncu lažne, jer danas s internetom možete vrlo lako lažirati podatke. A onda još vi to ne osjećate svojim tijelom, pa i nemate pravu stvar. To je vrlo očito npr. kada putujete svijetom i imate dosta informacija o mjestu u koje odlazite – mislite da znate mjesto, ali kad jednom tamo dođete počnete shvaćati da zapravo niste znali. Jer to nije samo pitanje činjenične informacije. Informacija se sastoji od više stvari.[/lang_hr]
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‑And do you also consider mobility as a way by which the artist can change his surroundings?
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[lang_hr]-Da li i mobilnost smatrate načinom na koji umjetnik može mijenjati svoju okolinu?[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Absolutely, this is the other dimension of the copy right, author rights issue. Nowadays it’s very difficult to believe that you can produce from your own single brain, or art , a piece of art that could be so special that will not resemble anything else. Most of the creation processed today is recycling things. In our organisation we have now a workshop in Sao Paolo, Brazil. We bring four artists from Africa, four artists from Brasil, and four artists from here, multi-disciplinary. The aim of this workshop is recycling art, and it is really interesting because you see that innovation is a relative notion, because you innovate from things that have been already created. I have my festival here in July. The first night is 3 concerts. The common point of the 3 concerts is that they start from things that have been done before by somebody else, and they create very new things out of it. And I call this night „My creation is your creation“-night, because I want to show this. And at the same time it is real creations, but it starts with something that was already investigated by someone else before. And this is possible if you move, if you meet this people, physically, or meet the place, and do not reproduce what you have just heard before. So, especially in the mobility of the art, there’s a link between mobility and copy right issue. Because mobility will probably create more interaction between single pieces of art that will be shared to some extent, it will be shared by somebody else. At the end of the day you don’t know really who it belongs to, and that’s a real problem… It’s a problem in terms of making of survival out of it, because you need money, so you need your copy right to be payed- that’s an issue, ’cause it’s a surviving issue. But from the artistic point of view it’s not the same- It could be a very correct, a very ongoing process which means also that the piece of art I am producing today, I have to be aware that it might be re-interpreted in 10 years from now by a young guy or a young girl that will eventually take my piece of art and from that make a fantastic thing or a very ugly thing. But this is an ongoing process, I cannot stop it.[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Apsolutno, ovo je druga dimenzija pitanja o autorskom pravu, „copy right“-u. Danas je vrlo teško vjerovati da osoba može samostalno, samo iz vlastitog mozga proizvesti umjetnost, umjetničko djelo koje bi moglo biti toliko posebno da neće nalikovati ničem drugom. Veći dio stvaralaštva koji se danas obrađuje je recikliranje stvari. U našoj organizaciji sada imamo radionicu u Sao Paulu, Brazil. Dovodimo četiri umjetnika iz Afrike, četiri iz Brazila i četiri ovdašnja umjetnika, multidisciplinarno. Cilj te radionice je recikliranje umjetnosti, a vrlo je zanimljivo jer kroz nju uviđamo da je inovacija relativna pojam, jer inoviramo od stvari koje su već stvorene. Ja imam i svoj festival ovdje u srpnju. Prve su noći na rasporedu tri koncerta. Zajednička točka ta tri koncerta je da počinju od stvari koju je ranije stvorio netko drugi, a oni iz nje stvaraju vrlo nove stvari. Tu noć naslovljavam “Moja kreacija je vaša kreacija”, jer upravo to želim pokazati. Istovremeno su to i prave kreacije, samo što počinju s nečim što je već prije istraživao netko drugi. A to je moguće ako se krećete, ako te ljude susrećete, fizički, ili upoznajete mjesto, a ne da samo reproducirate ono što ste ranije čuli. Stoga, pogotovo kod mobilnosti umjetnosti, postoji veza između mobilnosti i problema s autorskim pravima. Jer mobilnost će vjerojatno stvoriti više interakcije između pojedinih umjetničkih djela koja će se u određenoj mjeri dijeliti , koja će dijeliti netko drugi. Na koncu se ne zna kome stvarno to djelo pripada, a to jest stvaran problem … Problem u smislu preživljavanja od njega, jer novac vam treba, a zato trebate i da vam se isplaćuju autorska prava – to je to pitanje, pitanje preživljavanja. Međutim, iz umjetničkog gledišta nije isto – to može biti vrlo korektan, vrlo protočan proces, što znači također da moram biti svjestan da umjetničko djelo koje sam danas stvorio – za 10 godina mogu ga reinterpretirati neki mladić ili djevojka, koji će na koncu uzeti moju umjetninu i od nje napraviti fantastičnu stvar ili vrlo ružna stvar. No, to je proces koji traje, ne mogu ga zaustaviti.
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-Can you tell me a little bit about the kind of mobility you support in the Roberto Cimetta Foundation, in which you’re the CEO. In your presentation you were somewhat critical about the Euro-Mediterranean concept which now needs to be changed?[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]-Možete li mi reći nešto o mobilnosti kakvu podržavate kroz natječaje koje raspisuje Roberto Cimetta fondaciji gdje ste ravnatelj. U vašem sete izlaganju bili pomalo kritični naspram Euro-mediteranskog koncepta koji se sada treba mijenjati?[/lang_hr]
[lang_en] Well, the Euro-Mediterranean concept is not a reality. It’s a heritage from a political situation that existed since ages, and it lasts today. We don’t feel it because we’re on the good side of the axe, but for the Arab friends who have been oppressed by colonialism, not only the French one, but the Italian, English one,- this is a very touchy issue. So, you really have to clear out what is at stake and what is the understatement under this idea of north-south cultural cooperation. And I think, as I said, the first element we must warranty is a fair exchange. It is not one who is in a good position, and making some charity, and humanitarian, and help the poor one that is in a bad condition. This is not like that, I’m not even sure if it was, ever. Anyway, today is like that. So, we really have to forget about these concepts of the past, bearing in mind that this Euro-Mediterranian thing is also something that enclose us inside a closed area, and that the interesting point today with a Euro-Arab platform is that it can be open to the rest of the world. The idea of a Euro-Arab platform is that we go together to South America, Asia, to North America… Together, like a Euro-Arab common thing, but not a closed thing where we say „ok, we’re together, we’re between each other, and we don’t want external relations to affect our situation.“ This is old fashioned, this is not going to work, especially with young artists, younger artists, they don’t want it…[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Pa, Euro-Mediteransko koncept nije stvarnost. To je naslijeđe iz političke situacije koja je postojala od davnina i traje i danas. Mi ga ne osjećamo jer smo na dobroj strani sjekire, ali za arapske prijateljima koji su pritiskani kolonijalizmom, ne samo francuskim, nego i talijanskim, engleskim, – ovo je jako osjetljiv problem. Dakle, vi si stvarno morate razjasniti što je tu u igri, ono što se krije iza te ideje kulturne suradnje sjevera i juga. I smatram, kao što sam rekao, da je prvi element koji moramo jamčiti – fer razmjena. Nije to kao ono da netko u dobroj poziciji, humanitarac, dijeli milodare i pomoć siromašnome, koji je u lošem stanju. Ovo nije tako, a nisam ni siguran je li to ikada tako bilo. U svakom slučaju, danas je tako. Dakle, mi stvarno moramo zaboraviti te pojmove iz prošlosti, imajući na umu da je ta Euro-Mediteranska stvar također nešto što nas zatvara u ograničenom prostoru, te da je ono što je danas zanimljivo u vezi s Euro-Arapskom platformom to da ona može biti otvorena za ostatak svijeta. Ideja o Euro-Arapskoj platformi je da idemo zajedno u Južnu Ameriku, Aziju, Sjevernu Ameriku … Zajedno, kao zajednička Euro-Arapska stvar, ali ne neka zatvorena, u kojoj kažemo “ok, mi smo zajedno, mi međusobno, i ne želimo da vanjski odnosi utječu na naše stanje.“ To je staromodno i neće funkcionirati, pogotovo ne s mladim umjetnicima, mlađima, oni to ne žele …
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‑You’ve mentioned also the the regions will be more and more important-is it something positive or are there also some negative sides?[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]-Spomenuli ste također da će i regije biti sve važnije, je li to nešto pozitivno ili postoje i neke negativne strane?[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Both sides, because local authorities will have more and more power. Actually, if you look at Agenda 21 culture ‑it was released by the „Cites et gouvernements locaux unis“, „United citizens and local government“ …Which is a huge network, global, worldwide network of local authorities. These people released Agenda21, it is not a coalition of government that released it, it is a coalition of local authorities. And also, because of new technologies, especially Internet and things like that, local authorities will have more and more responsibility on how people live together, and also how local people address the rest of the world. Because I think it is new, that the local authorities have an international responsibility that they did not have before. Especially here. And here it’s a disaster, because the old fashion politicians here do not understand at all the international issue. They just don’t understand, and we need a new generation of people who can floodthe place with the rest of the world on a fair bases, not dominant, imperialist system.[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Obje postoje, jer lokalne vlasti će imati više i više moći. Zapravo, ako pogledate Agendu 21 za kulturu – objavila ju je „Cites et gouvernements locaux unis“, “Ujedinjeni građani i lokalne vlasti” … a to je ogromna mreža, globalna, svjetska mreža lokalnih vlasti. Ti su ljudi objavili Agendu21, nije je koalicija vlade objavila, to je koalicija lokalnih vlasti. Također, zbog novih tehnologija, posebice Interneta, lokalne vlasti će imati sve više odgovornosti za život ljudi u zajednici, a također i za to kako se njihovi građani odnose prema ostatku svijeta. Zato mislim da je to novost, da lokalne vlasti imaju međunarodnu odgovornost koju prije nisu imale. Pogotovo ne ovdje. A ovdje kod nas je katastrofa, jer staromodni političari uopće ne razumiju to međunarodno pitanje, jednostavno ne razumiju. i trebamo novu generaciju ljudi koji mogu preplaviti mjesto s ostatkom svijeta na fer osnovama, a ne kroz dominantni, imperijalistički sustava.[/lang_hr]
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-You were quite critical about what you named as the „cultural humanitarians“, so-what would be a new concept of co-operation?
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[lang_hr] -Bili ste vrlo kritični o onome što nazivate “kulturnim humanitarcima”. Koji bi po vama bio novi koncept suradnje?[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]-We have a french word for that,it’s „companiémant“, I don’t know how to translate it…[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]- Imamo francusku riječ za to, “companiémant”(?), ne znam kako je prevesti …[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]-Partnership?[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]-Partnerstvo?[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]- More than partnership – equal partnership, and constant partnership, it is not a deal, a short deal, but you start a fair relation with someone for many years, so-that is the point…[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Više od partnerstva – ravnopravno partnerstvo, i to stalno partnerstvo, nije to tek dogovor, kratki poslić, nego vi uspostavljate fer odnos s nekim na mnogo godina, u tome je stvar …[/lang_hr]
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‑You also mentioned Croatia. I’m coming from Croatia and I also notice that we’re maybe sometimes too much focused on entering Europe. You mentioned that we had some former connections with the rest of the world, which we lost in a way or at least it’s not in our focus. Why do you think it is important?
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[lang_hr]-Spomenuo ste i Hrvatsku. Ja dolazim iz Hrvatske i također sam primijetio da smo možda ponekad i previše usredotočeni na ulazak u Europu. Spomenuli ste da smo imali neke bivše veze sa ostatkom svijeta, koje smo putem izgubili, ili nam bar nisu u fokusu. Što mislite, zašto je to važno?[/lang_hr]
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-I don’t think you lost it. It’s important because for us this part of the world is also one of the cradles of multiculturalism, because you are there in a rather smaller platform, you have all this ancient cultures so confronted, like the Muslim Turkish thing, the Austro-Hungarian empire, the Slavian coming from the east…All these has been shaking and working together, sometimes in very bad mood, sometime in very good mood, because you’re have been a sort of a laboratory, much more than many other places in Europe. And this is a very good heritage, it’s a wealth, it’s an asset, you should keep it, you should make it flourish. The mistake would be, of course I don’t have no lessons to give to my friends from Croatia, but the mistake would be to re-enforce the Croatian national identity. You don’t need that, because you’re already strong. So, what you need is make us profit from this very long story of multiculturalism. This is the tragedy about Yugoslavia is that what was your asset turned into your catastrophe, and it is such a pity, plus the fact that it killed so many. Nowadays Croatia is entering Europe, from this part as second one after Slovenia, and maybe it’s time for Croatia to begin to face with this long multicultural story, and Europe, which is also a multicultural story. So, you have to experiment on that, and it’s a very good new adventure, it’s great. Also, I think that Balkans in general are the interface of so many things from the east the north, the south, the Mediterranean, also Central Europe…Everything is there. Plus the fact that, of course, you have young Croatians with modern education, so you have very good artists. It’s really important. The fact that the country join Europe is not about the number of inhabitants, it’s about the assets it brings in the common pot. And this is a very strong cultural asset. So, the idea is not that in Zagreb you’ll buy the traditional sub-culture from the entertainment industry and make very good concerts with very famous international stars…we can do it if you want, it’s no problem, but the interest is not there. The interest is to show how you can deal with so different cultures and cooperate.
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-Ne mislim da ste ih izgubili. Važni su, jer za nas je taj dio svijeta također jedna od kolijevki multikulturalnosti, jer ste tamo na prostorno manjoj platformi, ali imate suočene sve te drevne kulture kao što je muslimansko- turska, pa ona Austro-Ugarske monarhije, pa Slaveni dolaze s istoka … Sve to se međusobno treslo i zajednički je radilo, ponekad u vrlo lošem tonu, a ponekad i u vrlo dobrom raspoloženju, jer ste bili svojevrsni laboratorij, puno više od mnogih drugih mjesta u Europi. A to je jako dobro naslijeđe, to je bogatstvo, to je prednost, trebali bi to sačuvati, navesti da procvjeta. Pogrešno bi bilo (naravno, ne želim dijeliti lekcije mojim prijateljima iz Hrvatske), ali smatram da bi bilo pogrešno da ponovno ojačate hrvatski nacionalni identitet. Vi to ne morate, jer ste već jaki. Dakle, ono što trebate jest učiniti da profitiramo iz tih jako dugih priča o multikulturalnosti. Tragedija o Jugoslaviji je u tome da se ono što je bilo vaša prednost pretvorilo u vašu katastrofu, a to je takva šteta, pored činjenice da je tako mnogo ubijenih. Ovih dana Hrvatska ulazi u Europu, iz ovih krajeva druga nakon Slovenije, i možda je vrijeme da se počne suočavati s tom dugom multikulturnom pričom, kao i s Europom, koja je također jedna multikulturalna priča. Dakle, trebate eksperimentirati s time, i to je odlična nova avantura, super je. Također, mislim da je i Balkan u cjelini sučelje za tako mnogo stvari s istoka, sjevera, juga, Mediterana, također Centralne Europe … Sve je tu. Plus činjenica da, naravno, imate mlade, suvremeno obrazovane Hrvate, tako da imate i vrlo dobre umjetnike. To je doista važno. Činjenica da se zemlja pridružuje Europi ne svodi se na broj stanovnika riječ je tu o imovini koju ona donosi u zajedničku posudu. A to je snažno kulturno dobro. Dakle, ideja nije da ćete u Zagrebu kupiti tradicionalnu supkulturu iz industrije zabave i napraviti vrlo dobre koncerte s poznatim međunarodnim zvijezdama … mi to možemo učiniti, ako želite, nije to problem, ali interes nije u tome. Nas zanima pokazati kako se vi možete nositi s tako različitim kulturama i međusobno surađivati.
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Tekst: M.J, D.K
