Snaga blesavih ideja i humora/The power of silly ideas and humor
[lang_hr]Tijekom boravka u Marseillu, koji je ove godine Kulturna prijestolnica EU, susreli smo se s umjetnicima iz skupine Les Pas Perdus (“Izgubljeni koraci”). Nakon javnog predstavljanja njihova rada porazgovarali smo s jednim od osnivača te umjetničke organizacije, Guy André Lagesse-om i njegovom kolegicom, Dorene Juliene.[/lang_hr]
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During our stay in Marseille, which this year is the Cultural Capital of the EU, we have met with artists from the group “Les Pas perdus” (“The Lost Steps”). After a public presentation of their work we had a chat with one of the founders of this artistic organization, Guy André Lagesse, and his colleague, Doreen Julien . As it often happens in multicultural France, Mr. Lassages came there from Mauritius and was born in South Africa, in Durban, on the Indian Ocean. He first visited France as a very young man and, having learned about Cézanne, inspired by the works of that artist, he decided to enter art school, and even after completing the study he continued to live in France.
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Kako to već u multikulturalnoj Francuskoj često biva, gosp. Lassages dolazi sa Mauriciusa, a rođen je u Južnoj Africi, u Durbanu, na obali Indijskog oceana. Francusku je posjetio vrlo mlad i, nakon što je doznao za Cezanna, inspiriran radovima tog umjetnika odlučio je upisati umjetničku školu i tako ostao studirati i živjeti u Francuskoj.[/lang_hr]
[lang_hr]Trenutno, osim njihovog glavnog projekta « Victorine » – nazvanog po istoimenom društvenom centru u opasnom kvartu Marseillesa u kojem djeluju i trajno su nastanjeni – članovi Les Pas Perdus provode i zanimljiv projekt u Arlesu, gradiću 80 km udaljenom od Marseilles‑a. Dorene je u grupi zadužena biti producenticom tog projekta..[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Currently, in addition to their main project, “Victorine” – named after the eponymous community center in a dangerous neighborhood of Marseilles in which they operate and are permanently inhabited – the members of “Les Pas perdus” are implementing an interesting project in Arles, a town 80 km far from Marseilles. Doreen is in charge of the production of this project …[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Dorene: Projekt se zove „Le Mastoc et son bâtiment décoiffé“ („Mastoc i razbarušene zgrade“) Bavim se njegovom produkcijom i radim s 3 likovna umjetnika. Obično radimo s osobama koje nazivamo stanovnicima. Vodimo ih do procesa stvarnog dijeljenja njihove kreativnosti i do zajedničkog stvaranja umjetničkog djela. Bili samo pozvani od strane EU kulturne prijestolnice raditi mjesec dana u Arlesu. Obično radimo u Marseilles‑u, ali gostujemo diljem svijeta, ponekad nas pozovu jako daleko. Grad Arles odlučio nam je nakon tih mjesec dana ponuditi i rezidencijalni program u javnom dijelu grada, malo izvan centra, u kvartu Griffeuille. Tu sada već gotovo 20 mjeseci radimo na odnosima sa stanovnicima. Radi se o projektu uvrštenom u skupinu projekata “participacija zajednice – kreativni kvartovi” kojim se u programu EU prijestolnica kulture želi omogućiti veće sudjelovanje građana u kulturnim programima. [/lang_hr]
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Dorene Julien: The project is called ” Le Mastoc et son bâtiment décoiffé” (“Mastoc and the disheveled buildings”) and I’m working with three visual artists. Usually we work with people that we call inhabitants. We take them to the actual process of sharing their creativity and the co-creation of art. We were invited by the EU cultural capital to work for a month in Arles. Usually we work in Marseilles, but we perform throughout the world, sometimes we’re invited very far. After that month the City of Arles chose to offer us a residential program in the public part of the city, just outside the center of the city, called the Griffeuille. We are now working for already almost 20 months on relationships with residents of that area. This is a project that belongs to a group of projects called “Community involvement – creative districts “, which through the EU Capital of Culture wants to enable greater citizen participation in the cultural programs.
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Zašto je lokalna vlast htjela ovdje promijeniti stvari i zašto misle da je kultura u tome važna?
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[lang_en]Why the local government wanted to change things here and why they think that culture is that important?
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[lang_hr]Dorene : Mislim da je program u koji smo pozvani ujedno i svojevrstan eksperiment propitivanja mjesta, stanja umjetnosti u životu. To je i naša točka gledišta – da na neki način mi možemo preokrenuti perspektivu o onome što se smatra kulturom, što se smatra umjetnošću. Kad idete u područja koja se uglavnom oficijelno ne smatraju kulturom, susrećete ljude i svatko u sebi ima neku svoju poetiku, u mogućnosti ste tako otkriti nešto novo o ljudskosti. Pogotovo smatramo da rad u takvim situacijama, u odnošenju s ljudima koji nisu umjetnici, mijenja perspektivu samim umjetnicima ali i cijelom kulturnom području. Dakle, za nas je tu riječ i o onome što se događa stanovnicima kada im mi tu dođemo. U stvari, to je način nuđenja aktivnosti, ali mogao bi biti i te kako važan i u smislu pokretanja neke nove trgovine, sklapanja ugovora koji se iz tih interakcija mogu razviti. Odnosno – važno je da npr. imaju i knjižnice, da imaju parkove u kojima se djeca mogu igrati i sl. i možda su to realniji prioriteti, ali kao područje rada rekla bih da je to što mi ovdje radimo jednako važno kao i mnoge druge stvari.[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Doreen Julien: I think the program in which we are called is also a kind of experiment, questioning the place, the position of art in life. That is also our point of view – that in some way we can reverse the perspective of what is considered as culture, what is considered as art. When you go to areas that are generally not considered official culture, you meet people and everyone has poetics inside, this way you are able to discover something new about humanity. Especially we consider that work in those kind of situations, in relation with people that are not artists, changes the perspective for the artists themselves but also for the entire cultural field. So, for us it’s also about what is happening for the population when we come here. In fact, it’s a way of offering activities, but it could be also as important to bring some new commerce, tenders, that can happen through these interactions. Or, for example, it’s important to have a library, it’s very important to have gardens where children can play an so on. So, maybe there are other priorities, but as a work area, I would say that what we are doing here is just as important as many other things.[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Vaši projekti, dakle, uvelike ovise o sudjelovanju susjedstva. Zašto vam je komunikacija sa susjedima važna i kako uključujete ljude u svoj projekt?[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Your projects, therefore, depend on the participation of the neighborhood. Why it’s important to communicate with the neighbors and to involve people in your project?[/lang_en]
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Dorene: Da, to je bitan dio projekta, jer su oni doista dio rada koji tu provodimo. Zato je važno naglasiti da iz toga proizlazi i završni oblik naših radova. Bavimo se umjetnošću instalacija i spremamo izložbu na otvorenom koja će biti dostupna za razgledanje od 21. svibnja do konca rujna. Dakle, 4 mjeseca će izložba na otvorenom biti dostupna građanstvu i, naravno, ulaz je besplatan. Stoga, od samog početka, kada želimo susresti različite ljudima iz svih različitih krugova u kvartu, obično predložimo nešto što već jest naš posao, nešto što smo već ranije radili. Na primjer, napravili smo izložbu fotografije. Arles je vrlo poznat po međunarodnom fotografskom festivalu, tako da je svatko navikao po gradu susretati fotografe. Tako mi po cijelom kvartu zaustavljamo ljude na ulici i pitamo ih “Možemo li vas portretirati? Možete li nam simulirati, odglumiti kao da držite veliki kamen?“ Pozovemo ih u naš rezidencijski apartman, pa nas oni pozovu u njihov dom i malo po malo se jednostavno upoznajemo i možemo početi razgovarati o poslu. Ne pričamo o umjetnosti, ne razmećemo se, govorimo više o životu, a i umjetnost i kreativnost su zapravo dio života, tako da to nakon određenog vremena ne predstavlja problem.
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Doreen Julien: Yes, it is an essential part of the project, because they are truly part of the work that we carry out. That’s why it’s important, because it’s really a part of how the visual form we work on is coming out. We are doing art installations and preparing to open an exhibition which will be available for viewing from 21 May to end of September. So, for four months this exhibition will be open to the public, outdoors, and admission is free, of course. Therefore, from the very beginning, when we want to meet with people in the neighborhood, very different people with different backgrounds, we usually propose something that already is our job, what we have already done before. For example, we did a photography exhibition. Arles is very famous for the international photography festival, therefore everybody is accustomed to see photographers. So in the area we meet up in the street with people and we ask them „Can we take a portrait of you?“ and „We would like you to simulate that you are holding a big stone…“. We invite them in our residency apartment, than they invite us in their home and little by little very simply we get to know each other and we can start to talk about the work. We don’t talk about art, we don’t show off, we talk more about life, and art and creativity are really a part of life, so it is not really a problem after a certain time.
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[lang_hr]Guy André: Radeći s ljudima koji nisu nužno poznati kao umjetnici, ja mislim i vidim i doživljavam činjenicu da je svatko na svakom mjestu kreativan. Svatko je bio dijete, svatko se igrao ispod kreveta ili u ormaru ili na stablu, stvarajući svoj vlastiti svijet. Onda dođe vrijeme kad postanete odrasli i ljudi vam kažu „sada više ne smiješ biti blesav, moraš se potruditi biti ozbiljan“. Tako vi zaboravite kako ste izmislili svoj vlastiti svijet i prilagođavate se svijetu. Ono što naš tim pokušava raditi (nas tri izvođača zajedno radimo već 10 godina), jest krenuti od ideje, ili –bolje rečeno- od iskustva koje nam govori da je svatko kreativan. Nisu svi nužno umjetnici, ali kreativac je svatko. Ponekad se nešto u kući razbije i vi izrežete plastičnu bocu na dva dijela i u nju stavite svoju četkicu za zube, jer je posuda slomljena. Dakle, vi ste nešto izmislili, to je jeftino, ne morate kupiti…i tako svatko svakodnevno izmišlja svoj vlastiti život i čini to zajedno s ostalima. Ideja je, dakle, da se dođe na mjesto kao što je ovo predgrađe grada Arles‑a, predgrađe za koje ljudi kažu da je teško za život, jer ima puno migracija i svih problema s kojima se susrećemo posvuda u svijetu u predgrađima, gdje uprave kvartova, gradova, regija ili država ne donose dovoljno, ne skrbe dovoljno o ljudima. Nema dovoljno pažljivosti u tvrdnji da klupa koja je na ulici treba biti ovdje a ne tamo, jer – možda je ovdje stablo, a tamo nije. Oni od urbanista traže da djeluju- “Postavi klupu! Ne zanima me gdje će klupa stajati, morate postaviti klupu! “. Problem je u skrbi o svojim ljudima. Ako vodite brigu o svojim ljudima, oni će vam uzvratiti onime što imaju, jer svatko ima nešto za dati. Dakle, ideja je: doći na ovakva mjesta i početi raditi, a kada kažem raditi mislim na druženje s ljudima. Sve počinje opuštenim razgovorom, ne pričamo o umjetnosti, o stvaranju, nego o stvarima koje volite raditi – o ribolovu, sjetvi, hrani, vođenju ljubav, razgovoru, izmišljanju, smijanju itd. Odatle počinjemo nalaziti dodirne točke s ljudima, kroz šale, kroz način bivanja i razgovaranja o životu. A kroz život se pojavljuju oblici. Mislim – odnos koji imamo s ljudima, načini na koje se angažiramo u odnosima postaju oblici. Npr. u nekom trenutku imate kutiju nečega ovdje, a ovdje komad drveta i vi ih stavite zajedno i odjednom shvatite da to postaje gitara. Radi se, dakle, o tome da izmišljate život sa stvarima koje vas okružuju. Riječ je o kontekstu u kojem živite i okolnostima koje su dovele do toga da ste tu gdje jeste.[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Guy André: work with people that are not necessary known as artists, I think and I see and I experience the fact that everybody in any place is creative. Everybody has been a child, everybody has played underneath his bed or in a cupboard or in a tree, and they made up their own world. And than the time comes in when you become adult and people tell you „now you must not be silly any more, you must try and be serious“. So, you forget how you invented your own world and you adapt yourself to the world. And the work that we’re trying to do when we work with the team, (we work together for the past 10 years), it’s to go from an idea, or rather an experience saying that everybody is creative. Not necessary artist, but creative. Sometimes something is broken in the house –you cut a plastic bottle in two and you put your toothbrush in it because the container is broken. So, you invent something, it’s cheep, you don’t have to buy something. That’s how everybody everyday is inventing their own lives and how everybody is doing that together. So, the idea is to come to a place like this, the suburb of the city of Arles, which is a suburb that people consider a bit difficult, because of lots of migrations and all the other problems that we now meet everywhere in the world, in the suburbs, where the administrations of the districts, the towns, the cities, or the state are not looking after the people enough. There’s not much care in saying that the bench that is in the street should be here and not there, because maybe the tree is here and it’s not there. They are asking the urbanists to act, to „put the bench! and I don’t care where the bench is, you have to put the bench!“. The problem is to take care of the people, and if you take care of your people, the people will give back what they have, because everybody has something to offer. So, the idea is to come to a place like this, and to start to work, and when I say to work I mean to meet up with people. You start to talk very casual, not talking about arts, not about creation, but talk about things you like to do-fishing, sowing, eating, making love, talking, inventing, laughing etc. From there we begin to find points of contact with people, through jokes, through a way of being, of talking about life. And through life – forms appear. I mean- the relationship that we have with people, the way we engage in relationships becomes forms. example, at some point you have a box of something here, and there a piece of wood , you put them together and suddenly you realize that it becomes a guitar.Therefore, it’s all about how you invent life with things that surround you. It’s about the context that you’re living in and the circumstances that lead you to be where you are.
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Spomenuli ste zanimljivu frazu “glupave, blesave stvari pokreću svijet” – vidite li to i u umjetnosti?
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[lang_en]You’ve mentioned an interesting phrase- „The silly things make the world go around“ – do you see that in the art?[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Guy André : ‑Ne, ne radi se tu o gluposti, bilo bi bolje reći da je ono što obično smatramo beznačajnim u životu jednako važno kao i sve ostalo. Ističemo da ništa nije doista blesavo i činjenica je da sve ima neki značaj. Čak i ako se šalite, iako možda nećete napraviti avion, ali kažete npr.“Ja bih stavio ovu naranču u ovu zdjelu” – odjednom možete shvatiti da, ako stavite tu okruglu zdjelu preko naranče to postaje akvarij, a možete i razgovarati o tome jer ste nešto izmislili. Dakle, čak i one stvari koje se mogu činiti svjetovnima, običnima- to je iskustvo od kojeg svatko polazi. Mi živimo u običnome, to obično je naše postojanje. A ideja o blesavosti, ili o šalama s ljudima, jest način da se ljude navede odmaknuti se od sebe. I za nas je također tako. U stvari, kao umjetnici, (a mi jesmo umjetnici, naravno, jer to radimo svaki dan pa tako možemo i reći: “Ok, mi smo umjetnici.”), ovdje smo došli i puno učimo od ljudi koji mogu izmisliti nešto što mi nikada ne bi bili u stanju učiniti, jer nemamo njihove umove. Dakle, kada surađujemo s ljudima na nekom umjetničku djelu, ili nekom obliku koji zajedno stvaramo, to je suradnja koja je doista zajednički rad, gdje smo i oni i mi autori nečega. Radi se o stvarima za koje možemo reći da su smiješne, beznačajne – za nas su one vrlo važne, jer to je ono što nas sve povezuje. Samim time što smo ljudi, iako smo slabi i ranjivi, uvijek pokušavamo pokazati da smo moćni. Međutim, upravo ta naša slabost čini našu snagu.[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Guy André: We’re talking about stupid things, it’s more to say that what we usually consider to be insignificant in life is as important as everything. We point out that nothing is really silly, and the fact that everything has an importance, even though you’re joking, even though you can say …For example, you’re not going to make an airplane, but you’re saying „I should put this orange in this bowl“ ‑you can all of a sudden understand that if you put the bowl on top of the orange it becomes an aquarium, and you can talk about that because you’re inventing something. So, even those things that can be considered as mundane, as ordinary ‑that is the experience everybody comes from. We are living in the ordinary, and that ordinary is our existence. And the idea of the silliness, or to be joking with people, is a way to get people to come outside of themselves, for ourselves also. And in fact, as artists, (we are artists, of course, because we do that every day, so we can say „okay,we are artists.“), we come here and we learn a lot from people who will invent something that we would never be capable to do, because we haven’t got their minds. So, when we collaborate with people on doing an art work together, or a piece of form together, it’s a collaboration that is a joint collaboration really, where they are authors same as we are authors of something. It’s about those things that we can say are ridiculous, insignificant –for us it is very important, because this is what puts everybody together. Because we are like that, people are weak and vulnerable, but we always try to show that we’re powerful, although it’s really our weakness that creates our strength.[/lang_en]
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Dakle, ta komunikacija s običnim ljudima je nešto iz čega vi kao umjetnici crpite nešto vrijedno za svoj rad?
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[lang_en]So you find that from the communication with ordinary people you can, as artists, draw out something worthwhile for your work?[/lang_en]
[lang_hr],Guy André Lagesse: Pa i umjetnici su obični ljudi. Mislim, nije potrebno bojati se običnosti. Uvijek kažemo – “Da, ali mi bismo trebali, mi moramo napraviti iznimne stvari u životu.” Međutim, obično samo po sebi već jest izvanredno. Jer, ako ujutro slušate radio, vijesti slušate i čujete „tu se dogodilo bombardiranje, tamo je netko bio silovan, ovdje je netko počinio samoubojstvo …“ a ako vi ipak ustajete i idete na posao – to je izvanredno, jer trebali biste ostati spavati, trebali bi si staviti jastuk preko glave i ne poželjeti se više probuditi, jer svijet je strašan. Mislim, fantastičan je, ali i tragičan. A ako se ipak probudite i idete na posao i pozdravite pekara – to je već velika stvar. To je nevjerojatno. To je životna gesta koja puno znači. Dakle, mi volimo takve geste – tu činjenici da se u jutro probudite i izađete van. To je već fantastično puno, ogromno.[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Guy André: Artists are ordinary people, too. I mean, it’s not to be scared of the ordinary. We always say –„yes, but we should, we have to do extraordinary things in life.“ But the ordinary is already extraordinary. Because ‑if you listen to the radio in the morning, and listen to the news and you hear „bombing here, somebody got raped there, a suicide here, …“ and you get up and you go to work-that’s extraordinary, because you should sleep, you should put your pillow on your head and you don’t want to wake up, because the world is terrible. I mean, it’s fantastic, but it’s tragic. And if you nevertheless wake up and you go to work and you say „hello!“ to the baker- that’s a huge thing. That is incredible. It’s a gesture in life that is more than a lot. So, we like those type of gestures-the fact that you wake up in the morning and you go out. That’s fantastic already. It’s huge.[/lang_en]
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-Smatrate li humor važnim za kreativnost?
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[lang_en]-You find humor very important for creativity?[/lang_en]
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Guy André Lagesse : Da, jer humor je svojevrsno pretjerivanje. Pretjerivanje je jedini oklop koji imamo u borbi protiv svijeta koji pokušava biti definiran isključivo gospodarstvom. Smisao za humor je taj koji vam daje malo lakoće u životu kako bi bili sposobni reći „sutra ujutro ću se probuditi i izaći…“ Ako nemate tu lakoću u sebi, koja vas na trenutak podiže iznad tla, nećete se moći suočavati sa svijetom. Dakle, ono što mi pokušavamo napraviti jest raditi na tim „lakoćama“ života kako bi i sutra bili u stanju suočiti se sa svijetom – to je to što radimo.[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Guy André: Yes, because humor is like exaggeration.Hyperboleis the only armor we have to fight against the world which tries to be defined solely by economy. It is humor that gives you a bit of ease in your life to be able to say „Tomorrow morning I’ll wake up and get out“… If you don’t have that lightness in yourself, like being suspended above the ground for an instant, you won’t be able to confront the world. So, what we’re trying to do is to work on this lightness of life to be able to confront the world tomorrow. That’s what we’re doing.
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[lang_hr]Dorene Juliene: Kao što je Guy rekao, humor je dobar posrednik, jer se možete postaviti u poziciju ranjivosti, tako da ne pokazujete svoje vještine, ne oslanjate se na svoje iskustvo, morate više pokazati svoj ljudski dio, svoju osjetljivost, a i humor je dio toga. Kada to učinite i vi se možete opustiti i stvoriti vrlo jednostavan odnos s ljudima koji će kroz to uvidjeti da ste se tako i sami otvorili. A i radi se o tome da se otvorite. Korištenje humora, ćudljivosti, mašte, koketerije, sve su to načini da se umjetnost dovede na razinu jednostavnosti. Mislim da je to vrlo ozbiljna stvar, životu pristupati s humorom.[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Dorene Julien: As Guy said, humor is a good agent, a good go between, because you can put yourself in a position of vulnerability, so you do not show your competence, you don’t rely on your experience, you must show more your human side, your sensitivity, and humor is a part of that. When you do this you can also relax and create very simple relations with the people that, through that, are going to see that you open yourself. It’s all about opening yourself. Using humor, whimsical, fantasy, coquettish- it’s all about bringing art to a simple level. I think it’s very serious to be humorous in life. [/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Kao što vaš kolega kaže, “Blesavost okreće svijet.“…[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]-As your colleague said, “Silliness makes the world go around.” …[/lang_en]
[lang_hr]Dorene: Da, to je dobar zaključak.[/lang_hr]
[lang_en]Dorene: Yes, that’s a good conclusion.[/lang_en]
Razgovarao: M.J
Tekst: D.K
